[R-390] off topic interesting read
Gary Pewitt
n9zsv at magtel.com
Thu Apr 9 18:58:14 EDT 2009
You should have seen the computer test cells used for the Cruise
Missile engines power test runs in 1992. The booth had two huge
color monitors and about a million and a half dollars of peripherals
all connected to an 8 bit computer that was no more powerful than a
Commodore 64. It could only access 64K of memory. My Amiga 1000
could run rings around it.
73 Gary
At 09:12 PM 4/8/2009, Jerry Boman wrote:
>I read the grid leak article from another source earlier today and wasn't
>very surprized. I know I was shocked several years back when NASA announced
>shortly after the in flight shuttle explosion that they were upgrading the
>computer control systems for the shutlle for various reasons and they
>explained their control system at the time was I think an 8086 processor
>based system...you know the ones used before pentium and pentium 1 desktops
>of ancientville. Take care all, Jerry
>
>On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:27 PM, <r-390-request at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
>
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. off topic interesting read (odyslim at comcast.net)
> > 2. Re: off topic interesting read (Richard Loken)
> > 3. Re: off topic interesting read (2002tii)
> > 4. Re: off topic interesting read (Patrick)
> > 5. (no subject) (mikea)
> > 6. Re: off topic interesting read (William J. Neill)
> > 7. Re: off topic interesting read (mikea)
> > 8. Re: off topic interesting read (Cecil Acuff)
> > 9. Re: off topic interesting read (Robert Nickels)
> > 10. Re: off topic interesting read (Dana Cobb)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:47:10 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: odyslim at comcast.net
> > Subject: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: milcom <milcom at mailman.qth.net>, r390 list <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> 248672294.1614321239209230232.JavaMail.root at sz0106a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> >
> > I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been caught
> > trying to map out our power grids.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090408/NEWS-US-CYBERATTACK-USA/
> >
> > Regards, Scott
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:59:06 -0600 (MDT)
> > From: Richard Loken <richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: odyslim at comcast.net
> > Cc: r390 list <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>, milcom <milcom at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID: <20090408125538.N26043 at discord.bogons>
> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> >
> > On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, odyslim at comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > > I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been caught
> > > trying to map out our power grids.
> >
> > Using Windows to manage the power grid are we? Does Microsoft still have
> > that warranty clause on Windows that tells you not to use Windows for
> > anything that risks life, limb, money, or truth, justice, and the American
> > way?
> >
> > People continue to astonish me!
> >
> > --
> > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> > father
> > Athabasca University : but you have to earn
> > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'"
> > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:09:21 -0400
> > From: 2002tii <bmw2002tii at nerdshack.com>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > Message-ID: <20090408190922.B350511B876 at karen.lavabit.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> > Scott wrote:
> >
> > >I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been
> > >caught trying to map out our power grids.
> >
> > Just one more security problem we invite by jumping whole-hog on the
> > Internet bandwagon.
> >
> > Time was when commands to remote equipment of all kinds was carried
> > by dedicated circuits, so an intruder first had to physically locate
> > and tap into the circuit, then begin to figure out how the commands
> > worked. Now, lazy designers blithely use the ubiquitous Internet for
> > the comm link, and the first part of the security equation is very
> > seriously weakened.
> >
> > I bet (rather, let's say I hope) that communications with our nuclear
> > missile arsenal (and everyone else's) are still handled with secure
> > dedicated lines.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:18:19 -0400
> > From: "Patrick" <brookbank at triad.rr.com>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>, "2002tii" <bmw2002tii at nerdshack.com>
> > Message-ID: <EF56D8374A094366B874E43B0CF7E14E at PATCOMPUTER>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type="original"
> >
> > Anyone here remembers de AUTODIN??? Pat retired IBM'er
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "2002tii" <bmw2002tii at nerdshack.com>
> > To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 3:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> >
> >
> > > Scott wrote:
> > >
> > >>I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been
> > >>caught trying to map out our power grids.
> > >
> > > Just one more security problem we invite by jumping whole-hog on the
> > > Internet bandwagon.
> > >
> > > Time was when commands to remote equipment of all kinds was carried
> > > by dedicated circuits, so an intruder first had to physically locate
> > > and tap into the circuit, then begin to figure out how the commands
> > > worked. Now, lazy designers blithely use the ubiquitous Internet for
> > > the comm link, and the first part of the security equation is very
> > > seriously weakened.
> > >
> > > I bet (rather, let's say I hope) that communications with our nuclear
> > > missile arsenal (and everyone else's) are still handled with secure
> > > dedicated lines.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > R-390 mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/r-390
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> >
> > --
> > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> > SPAMfighter has removed 2287 of my spam emails to date.
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> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:22:36 -0500
> > From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
> > Subject: [R-390] (no subject)
> > To: r390 list <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID: <20090408192236.GA6633 at mikea.ath.cx>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Bcc:
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > Reply-To:
> > In-Reply-To: <20090408125538.N26043 at discord.bogons>
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 12:59:06PM -0600, Richard Loken wrote:
> > > On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, odyslim at comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been
> > caught
> > > > trying to map out our power grids.
> > >
> > > Using Windows to manage the power grid are we? Does Microsoft still have
> > > that warranty clause on Windows that tells you not to use Windows for
> > > anything that risks life, limb, money, or truth, justice, and the
> > American
> > > way?
> > >
> > > People continue to astonish me!
> >
> > AIUI, it's an interesting mix of FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, various
> > flavors of Solaris, some Silicon Graphics stuff, AIX, and you-name-it,
> > which, like Topsy, "just growed". And, of course, there's Gatesware in
> > it. Most SCADA stuff used not to be connected to the public Internet,
> > and I'm mystified that anyone would ever connect one to the other. The
> > downside is just too bad to justify the gamble.
> >
> > Topicality: without the grid, I have to fire up the generator to run
> > my R-390 and two R-390A, but the RF noise from the neighborhood goes
> > *WAAAAAAAAY* down. I learned that from the last few big ice storms.
> > If I just get out the batteries and run my sand-state rigs off them,
> > without genny, then it's hear-much-better time. 182 Ampere-hours will
> > run the rig a long time, too.
> >
> > --
> > Mike Andrews, W5EGO
> > mikea at mikea.ath.cx
> > Tired old sysadmin
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:36:23 -0500
> > From: "William J. Neill" <wjneill at consolidated.net>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: odyslim at comcast.net
> > Cc: r390 list <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>, milcom <milcom at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID: <3E554BC0-1FE4-437F-8530-5055B1E49B37 at consolidated.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
> > format=flowed
> >
> > The subject has attracted attn from DoD and DHS and herewith are a
> > sampling of comments from this morning's postings on a DoD INTEL
> > netserver:
> >
> > We have known about China and Russia?s exploits on the NIPR front.
> > This article is interesting
> > in the fact that critical infrastructure systems were penetrated and
> > malware was left behind.
> >
> > Does anyone have an UNCLASS damage assessment?
> >
> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123914805204099085.html
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 8, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Villano, Paul Mr CIV USA TRADOC wrote:
> > I found the CBS version of the story http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
> > 2009/04/08/national/main4928223.shtml
> > interesting because a former HLS employee mentions there were "a lot"
> > of intrusions last year. I wonder what the reason for his "former"
> > status is.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 8, 2009, at 8:51 AM, Raines, James B Jr WO1 RES USAR USARC wrote:
> >
> > > We have known about China and Russia?s exploits on the NIPR front.
> > > This article is interesting
> > > in the fact that critical infrastructure systems were penetrated
> > > and malware was left behind.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have an UNCLAS damage assessment?
> >
> > You may be interested in the Task Force on Electric Grid
> > Vulnerability (EGV), which maintains a host of unclassified and FOUO
> > materials on Intelink-U:
> >
> > http://www.intelink.gov/wiki/Electric_Grid_Vulnerability
> >
> > Membership and POCs available here:
> >
> > http://www.intelink.gov/wiki/Electric_Grid_Vulnerability/Membership
> >
> > You may wish to contact the Task Force for additional information on
> > the recent media coverage.
> >
> > One important consideration is that the presence of malware on such
> > systems does not always imply intentional penetration; often, the
> > presence of malware on secure systems is the result of improper use,
> > poor user education, or other deficient local security practices. Web
> > and email vectors are common.
> >
> > That said, the presence of this type of malware, much of which is
> > designed to communicate with an external control server for
> > instructions, is undesirable even if not the result of a concerted or
> > targeted effort. Once in place, networks of individuals interested in
> > more malicious activities than sending spam or bringing down a web
> > site would have a considerable base of systems from which to pick, in
> > all manner of sensitive areas.
> >
> > - Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Neill
> > Conroe, Texas
> >
> >
> > On Apr 8, 2009, at 11:47 AM, odyslim at comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been caught
> > trying to map out our power grids.
> >
> > http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090408/NEWS-US-
> > CYBERATTACK-USA/
> >
> > Regards, Scott
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:38:39 -0500
> > From: mikea <mikea at mikea.ath.cx>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > Message-ID: <20090408193839.GB6633 at mikea.ath.cx>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 03:18:19PM -0400, Patrick wrote:
> > > Anyone here remembers de AUTODIN??? Pat retired IBM'er
> >
> > OhYeah, big-time. I worked at the Camp Drake switch (NW corner of Tokyo)
> > for two years. I particularly remember, despite earnest attempts to
> > recycle those neurons, the IBM 1976: a special-purpose beast that read
> > and punched cards on one end, while the other hung off a 1200 (or 2400,
> > 4800, or 9600) Baud modem[1], with a comm line that went through Tech
> > Control to the microwave and then to whatever transmitters were at the
> > transmitter site. Stone-age, but not quite as stone-age as the Plan-55
> > stuff.
> >
> > Topicality: the receiver site actually used R-390 to pull the data off
> > HF, and microwave from there to a tower at Drake. They changed to
> > R-390A about the time I was reassigned, and I have no idea what they
> > used after that. The AUTODIN switch there replaced a Plan-55 torn-tape
> > TTY commcenter, which was loads of not-fun, and which also used R-390
> > and R-390A. All gone now. Google Maps shows bare concrete and weeds
> > where the commcenter and the switch were.
> >
> > [1] We originally had modems with real mechanical resonators. When the
> > resonator stopped, we'd get a call, and apply a brogan to the front
> > of the box to start it ringing again. Really. "Kick HERE"-type
> > maintenance. I remember when we got solid-state Rixon modems to
> > replace those things: they were so _tiny_, and they Just Worked.
> >
> > --
> > Mike Andrews, W5EGO
> > mikea at mikea.ath.cx
> > Tired old sysadmin
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:40:27 -0500
> > From: "Cecil Acuff" <chacuff at cableone.net>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: "Richard Loken" <richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca>,
> > <odyslim at comcast.net>
> > Cc: r390 list <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID: <85E574D55D854CC7B7D6BD677719C0FF at acuffmain>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > I didn't read anything in the article that indicated it to be as simple as
> > Windows Richard. I work for one of the largest electric utillities in the
> > US in IT and I can assure you we don't use windows machines to control
> > substations and generating plant controls. It is propriatary protocols on
> > a
> > closed network that does not use the internet for backhaul. Mostly company
> > owned fiber network across the entire southeast US. But some of the last
> > mile paths are leased and RF....but carrying a complex protocol. Not
> > bulletproof but not as easily hacked as a Windows machine sitting on a DSL
> > connection 24/7.
> >
> > Cecil...
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Loken" <richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca>
> > To: <odyslim at comcast.net>
> > Cc: "r390 list" <r-390 at mailman.qth.net>; "milcom" <milcom at mailman.qth.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 1:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, odyslim at comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > >> I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been caught
> > >> trying to map out our power grids.
> > >
> > > Using Windows to manage the power grid are we? Does Microsoft still have
> > > that warranty clause on Windows that tells you not to use Windows for
> > > anything that risks life, limb, money, or truth, justice, and the
> > American
> > > way?
> > >
> > > People continue to astonish me!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> > > father
> > > Athabasca University : but you have to
> > earn
> > > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of
> > > 'daddy'"
> > > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > R-390 mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/r-390
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:10:18 -0500
> > From: Robert Nickels <ranickel at comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: 2002tii <bmw2002tii at nerdshack.com>
> > Cc: R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > Message-ID: <49DD04AA.20900 at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > 2002tii wrote:
> > > Time was when commands to remote equipment of all kinds was carried
> > > by dedicated circuits, so an intruder first had to physically locate
> > > and tap into the circuit, then begin to figure out how the commands
> > > worked. Now, lazy designers blithely use the ubiquitous Internet for
> > > the comm link, and the first part of the security equation is very
> > > seriously weakened.
> > >
> > >
> > Having had some involvement in the process control industry,
> > cybersecurity is a Really Big Deal. The ISA SP-99 standard are focused
> > on this, you can Google up more than you'll want to read about it.
> >
> > The old axiom was that a security system is no stronger than the
> > barriers to physical access. Wires can be tapped - but add the growing
> > trend toward wireless (what you and I would call by the old fashioned
> > term "radio") for industrial communications and the plot really
> > thickens. ISA SP-100 is an evolving standard for industrial wireless -
> > but it's based on a taxonomy of applications, and even the strongest
> > advocates don't talk about using it for safety critical purposes. It's
> > great for non-critical monitoring, but there is interest in doing real
> > time control via wireless, and the discussions tend to focus on
> > encryption algorithms, key distribution, ways to guard against
> > unauthorized intrusion, interception, message replay, and so forth.
> >
> > But most of these folks don't understand how "radio" really works. I
> > caused a few frowny faces at one committee meeting where I pointed out
> > that a strong enough transmitter could put enough ERP on the receiver
> > inputs of their 802.15.4 silicon radios that nothing would get through.
> > (To get decent battery life, most of these spread spectrum radios
> > transmit with 1 to 10 mw of power - that's not much ERP at a few hundred
> > feet).
> >
> > Some finally realized that even the most sophisticated algorithm wasn't
> > much help during an RF-based denial-of-service attack, and that
> > controlling output devices like pumps, valves, and motors with wireless
> > could have some unintended consequences.
> >
> > I think the companies and people involved in these industries are very
> > conscientious - but they've got to be right all the time - the bad guys
> > only have to be right once.
> >
> > 73, Bob W9RAN.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:27:08 -0400
> > From: "Dana Cobb" <objoyful at tampabay.rr.com>
> > Subject: Re: [R-390] off topic interesting read
> > To: <R-390 at mailman.qth.net>
> > Message-ID: <3F8335798EF7412299B76CF854121662 at DANACOBB>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Scott wrote:
> >
> > >I know this is off topic but worth reading. Individuals have been
> > >caught trying to map out our power grids.
> >
> > Just one more security problem we invite by jumping whole-hog on the
> > Internet bandwagon.
> >
> > Time was when commands to remote equipment of all kinds was carried
> > by dedicated circuits, so an intruder first had to physically locate
> > and tap into the circuit, then begin to figure out how the commands
> > worked. Now, lazy designers blithely use the ubiquitous Internet for
> > the comm link, and the first part of the security equation is very
> > seriously weakened.
> >
> > I bet (rather, let's say I hope) that communications with our nuclear
> > missile arsenal (and everyone else's) are still handled with secure
> > dedicated lines.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Don is 110% correct ! The infrastructure AT&T and local Telephone companies
> > provided to the military/government would probably stagger the average
> > citizens mind!! Most of the infrastructure is obsolete now in the era of
> > the
> > internet, glasnost and perestroika.. Dana K1RQ AT&T Retired
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > R-390 mailing list
> > R-390 at mailman.qth.net
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/r-390
> >
> >
> > End of R-390 Digest, Vol 60, Issue 8
> > ************************************
> >
>
>
>
>--
>"FREEDOM"=The result of intention and action against tyranny. "Live Free -
>Be Free"
>______________________________________________________________
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Gary Pewitt N9ZSV garypewitt at centurytel.net 479 675 4376
1500 French Prairie Rd. Booneville, Arkansas 72927
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Pewitt's Law: But it's that other 10% that makes life worth living."
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